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Saturday, 24 August 2019
SPQR - Have Warlord Games got it all wrong?
Warlord Games have recently published, and with some fanfare and public anticipation, a set of skirmish level rules for the Ancient period. This is something that I and clearly quite a few others have been wanting for years; the likes of Lion Rampant are great but are still focused on too large a system. SPQR promises much smaller actions with fast and furious combat etc etc etc. In broad terms Warlord Games have done this, at least at first glance. The rule book is large, almost two hundred pages, but the basic game rules themselves take up just twelve. Then there are some advanced rules, hero traits etc that take up about the same again. The rest of the book is given over to lengthy sections that discuss the dozen or so nations/factions/armies that the rules have stats for. And now the problems seem to rise and they have created some serious discussion and division on the forum boards and Facebook page.
Combat involves the rolling of seriously large numbers of dice in many situations, the balance of the various abilities and lethality of such die rolls against the in-game purchase cost of the characters and soldiers has been called into question. It seems that Roman Legionaries, expensive but skilled as one might imagine, are no match for an opposing force of many cheaper barbarian models. An entire force can be wiped out following a single attack give the number of dice involved and the various bonuses. Many and various other issues have been raised and added to the threads increasing the general feeling and look of confusion and even dissatisfaction.
The discussions have been so loud as to attract the attention of the author, who has had to issue not just an FAQ sheet (not unusual) but a second sheet that updates and changes central rules. Has this solved the problems? No, not really. The waters just seem to muddier now and the general impression is that the rules were not suitably play tested or checked before release, a cardinal sin in such a hobby. The on-line discussions still rage and almost every aspect of the rules are now open to scrutiny. However, I am beginning to think that the problems are actually centred around our own expectations of the rules and our not realising that they are not what we think.
Simply put, I think these rules are not meant for us old-guard wargamers and the historical detail and depth we have come to expect and, perhaps perversely, have come to need.
When you look at how the stats for each unit type are presented it suggests a certain...Warhammery-ness...? Then consider how the text reads, particularly in the introduction and early sections. The choice of language and narration seems very much aimed at younger readers or, at least those very new to wargames and not just the period. The information given for each of the armies goes into a lot of socio-cultural details and I was immediately put in mind of the Warhammer army books and their backstories for each faction. Should it perhaps then be such a surprise that we semi-professional moaners and gamers feel certain things are missing or not fitting our preconceptions?
If I am right then quite a bit of the blame has to still be laid at Warlords door. If they are producing a game, especially in the light of the many brilliant sets of rules published by them and others in the last five or so years, that it is obviously going to be of huge public interest shouldn't they have been more up front about its raison-detre? Of course I may be wrong. I am building a small force for the rules and I am working with my best friend to create further forces and games. Perhaps we will love it as is, hate it or, create a few house rules to tweek things. Whatever happens I hope that Warlord Games manages to ride out this period of public confusion and that the rules find themselves a place within the hobby.
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I think everyone looses the whole idea of the game, its not small armies meeting over a barren board, its Heroes accompanied with some minions across a cluttered and realistic terrain heavy board - everyone moans about the gauls but they need to meet all the requirments to collect the huge amount of dice, and is any army going to let a bunch of slavering hordes just trot up to them and attack! sure there are some areas that need tightening or fixing, but show me a system that doesnt! i love it, its fun and exciting even when ya get spanked best 500 Denarii ive spent in over 30 years of gaming!
ReplyDeleteHi VonPickles and thanks for your comment. I think you are probably correct on all points and I love your enthusiasm about the game. The bottom line is, did you have fun? If you can say yes then there is clearly something right in the rules! The old saying about not throwing the baby out with the bath water is looking quite apt at the moment.
DeleteFor me, the biggest problem with this game is unclearity of rules. The points are broken too, but there is so many confusion with near every rule. After first FAQ, there was over 30 answers discussion about save,for Caesar's sake it's SAVE. I really feel I bought open beta not the final game. And, no comparing to others rules is wrong. Its Warlord Games, one of the biggest publisher. Gamers believed they got something good and easy and not confusing. We thing it will be gateway for non historical gamers to hobby. But the confusion, unclearity, changes on FB posts makes this game and looks like little chaotic playground. Sorry but most of new blood is now playing WarCry and thet will not try anything historical ( histerical ) anymore.
ReplyDeleteHi Bogus_law, thanks for the comment. I think you have hit the nail on the head. The debate about the rules or meaning of rules, the level of game its supposed to represent, none of these should be issues in the first place. Chaos reigns and we are all getting wet. Warlord have dropped the ball and not for the first time after the Cruel Seas mess. It makes me fear for the Age of Sail rules they are due to release soon!
Deleteso, a buddy and I just started looking into SPQR and Mortal Gods... but now with all this hub-bub around SPQR we're not so sure.. on one hand we have models from Hail Caesar and other historicals... so the investment isn't a big issue... and we are pretty casual gamers so the micro-details of historical accuracy and points variations really won't bother us... but that said, gaming time is a limited resources, and setting up to play a game that is perhaps not well done or balanced or that has a lot of poorly worded rules or rules changes isn't how we'd like to spend an evening. I do get that a lot of Warlord games are written for the 'gentlemen gaming group' where you are suppose to take the game and make it your own or fit it to a scenario of your choosing... and I also see the appeal in Warlord going down more of a "GW intro-style skirmish game" that perhaps missed their fan-base by a bit. Thanks for the editorial and keep us updated as to your thoughts on the game it goes!
ReplyDeleteHi JAHATCH28 and thanks for the comment. I very much agree with your issue about the time we have available to game in, its a very good point. Our investment in a product is not just about finances or the time we take to paint, it is also very much about what we choose to spend our time actually playing. The ideal game is one where all three points come together neatly, SPQR is clearly not there yet. Will it ever be? the rule changes and clarifications are all well and good but will they cause negative impacts that will cull gamers? We shall work our way through the rules and play some games here in Kent and see what we find. Updates hopefully soon!!!
DeleteI have been following this topic since the game was first announced. I have been looking for a decent skirmish game for that time period for a very long time...like 50 years. I have played MANY different rule sets and was a play tester for Avalon hill back when they were a serious wargaming producer (late 1970's- early 1980's). I have NEVER seen such outrage for a newly released game. What really surprised me was that much of the complaining started before the game had even been released. It seemed that the powergamers started list building before they even had a chance to roll a single die. It also seems that a lot of the outrage is because the Romans suck in a skirmish game. Well guess what. Historically the Romans DID suck when not engaging an enemy in large formations. Roman troops were drilled (and VERY well) in formation fighting. They had little if any training in individual combat. Gamers also don't seem to understand (or care) about the psychological aspect of ancient combat. Troops trained to be part of a larger formation get accustomed to having a friend to watch their six and are terrified when they don't have that comforting feeling of being a member of a larger group. Troops trained to fight as individuals have no such desire to have someone beside them. They fought extremely well in small unit engagements but were not so good when in large formations. I do agree that there were some game rules issues that needed clarifying, but that is not unusual. I remember a game from my day (Star Fleet Battles) that you had to wait for the next expansion for the rules clarifications from the last one. Sometimes the errata section of the rules you got were longer than the section for the new rules for the expansion. I do blame Warlord games for releasing the rules before the game. In this day of high speed internet it was just asking for trouble. All in all the game sounds like an interesting one, but I will wait to spend my money on it until the furor subsides. I don't want to invest in a game that no one in my area is going to play.
ReplyDeleteHi geezergamer and thanks for your comment. It sounds as if we were cast from a very similar mold! It is clear that plenty of gamers are enjoying the rules for what they are even if they have concerns over some issues but, you are right. Warlord have really messed up here and I would really like to be a fly on the wall at some HQ meetings! Who wants or can afford to spend out on a game that appears to be just a work in progress? I really hope that they can sort it all out but I am concerned that the gamers are all wanting various and opposing things, what might the 'final' product actually be I wonder?
DeleteHave the starter set but not yet played. I also got the new Coast warfare game not yet played also. But I joined both Facebook groups and have been completely gob smacked by the posts on both groups of how bad the games are. I bought this game saying to myself that Warlord would not make the same mistake twice in a row. Watched videos about it and thought it looked good. Now I find that no one seems to like it as written. Then there have been complaints and moans about the faq’s. I think Warlord should redo the rule books and correct all the problems and do what battlefront did take your old book into your flags and get the new ones either free or a greatly reduced price I.e.£1
ReplyDeleteHi Laager50, thanks for your comment. Gob smacked sums it all up very neatly, doesn't it? What if anything did they learn from that Cruel Seas mess? Apparently nothing. The Age of Sail game of theirs is also due and interests me greatly but, how brave do we need to be? I completely agree with you about Warlord having to redo the books and exchanging them free or for a nominal charge. Perhaps then they will less inclined to these ridiculous releases.
DeleteI was wondering if you ever gave this system a go and what your reactions were? My 10 year old son got a starter box for his birthday, and we are working on getting the figures put together. I have some limited experience with Middle Earth SBG and Age of Sigmar, but I am more of a painter than a serious gamer. My son has been fascinated with Romans for years. I'm hoping the actual play won't disappoint him. Thanks.
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